Thinking out loud
There are many things in this world that we need to come to grips with one way or the other.
Our gut may tell us one thing and our brain another. Some of the critters up in congress don't bother to consult their brain before they legislate morality for the rest of us.
I can think of some examples.. see if you agree or not.
Drugs: I've seen first hand what drug abuse can do to people, it's horrible. I wish we could put the evil genie back in the bottle. However I've also seen how the war on drugs has made the drug trade phenomenonaly profitable. We read about the gangs, turf wars plus all the property crimes and killings commited by drug addicts who are trying to get money for their next fix.
I wonder how many of our nations problems would go away if we just let people buy their crack and meth at the pharmacy...
Abortion: It's ugly. I've seen the videos. I think it's disgusting. Except in cases of rape, incest and major illness I don't agree with it... BUT if abortion is made illegal then it will be driven to the back alleys and butchers once again. I can't decide which is worse. Plus there are already hundreds of thousands of unwanted kids in this country. Are we on the right track with legal abortion in this country? I guess I'll leave that one to a higher power.
The war on terror: The spy agencies and our national security teams have gained sweeping new powers for wire tapping, monitoring websites, arrest and detention without explanation or bail and of course, warrantless searches. These changes have helped us catch terrorists but what will happen when some future administration uses these powers to attack political rivals and harass ordinary citizens? (If they haven't already)
I'm thinking there needs to be a limit to how far we can go with spying on our own people. If they want to spy on people outside our borders, foreign nationals in this country or illegal aliens I really have no problem with it.
Illegal immigration: You can't help but feel sorry for these people that come over, wanting to escape the shithole just to the south of us. I've seen how hard working and honorable many of these people are. However, they are here illegally, they broke the law and must be deported. Our national soverignty is at stake.
Maybe we could ease the process somewhat and get these people over here legally and properly documented. I also think all social services for non Americans should be cut off without exception. Mexico says that is inhumane..but what are they doing for their poor besides encouraging them to come over and leech off of our already overloaded system.
Well I guess that's enough pondering for today.
posted by Bill Rowland @ February 19, 2008
29 Comments
29 Comments:
I don't have the answer, but you have some damn good points about the illegals.
I daresay I'd do the same thing if I could quadruple my income by going across a border.
I agree with you on the abortion 100% Hammer. I would have said it the same way exactly. I hate the thought of young girls having abortions. I mean if you are old enough to play then you can pay the consquences along with it.But I wont get into here..
Now illegals. Yikes I suppose you see more of them come across than we do but we have our share up here in Wi. The place Jeff works they had quite a few and when they got deported back to Mexico about a year ago the manager of the back dock hasnt been able to keep help because of the work they do back there. So yes they can work but they should be here legally if they want to work and make money for there families.
you managed to touch on all of the topics I avoid. Ill be taking the FIFTH on this one.
Wow..I agree with you on all that...that's refreshing in the blogdom.
The answers are not only not black & white, the shades of gray are infinite.
We don't need 30 million uneducated people to be given amnesty. Sorry. But that's a fact. We need qualified, educated immigrants.
Mexico has no excuse for being the 3rd world hell hole it is. They have resources coming out of their ears, open land and tourist destinations like no other. Time to stop holding their hand and doing all the work for them, they need to stand on their own two feet. People of Mexico! Viva la revolucion!
War on drugs? Absolutely agree!
Abortion? Although I despise it, and I believe the morning after pill has somewhat eased mechanical abortion, again I agree.
War on terror? Slippery slope, and we seem to be sliding at break-neck speed.
Illegal Immigration? Mexico generates a HUGE revenue stream by encouraging this practice to continue. They stand to have to take care of themselves if we take deportation seriously. I also believe we should reconsider our position on US Citizenship to children born in the US to illegal immigrants.
GREAT post!
You make some very valid points.
Great ponderings!
Maybe you should run run for office. Though I cannot agree with you on the drug issue. And while I see your point on the privacy issue, I still have to say that if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry about it. If I have to allow the government to hear me order Dominoes Pizza or complain that my boss is an a-hole in order to prevent another 9-11, I will make the trade off in a heart beat.
RLL: I think they are getting 10x if not more by walking over the border.
Tweety: manual labor is scarce around here too. All the illegals work for big contracting companies and the little guys can't get anyone decent to come work.
meleah: I was abut to take the 5th too but then thought just to go for it.
leelee: cool! Glad we're on the same page.
cube: absolutely I don't think there is a one size fits all.
Jenn: I agree 100%. The last Amnesty in 86 just taught illegals that they can wait long enough and just get a free pass. Now look what we're dealing with. Mexico has been fucked for a long long time. Even after a revolution the underdogs become the opressors.
Dana: I absolutely agree on tough love for the illegals. They can go home and take care of their own nest.
Karen: On the privacy issue, I've nothing to hide either but I worry about that kind of power falling into the hands of Hillary or Obama and it being used for their socialist revolution. On the Drug issue: nothing is working now and I'm wondering if legalization would be the same or worse.
casdok: thanks :)
Er.......isn't everyone illegal apart from the Native Americans?
Yours the colonialist!
All interesting topics but I agree the questions are not as black and white as we want to think.
Drugs: Some countries allow and regulate heavy drug use. Some say it works but the personal distruction of drugs is bad. Can we really stop it. We have now taken it to a war on smokes and soon obesity.
Abortion: Again right on. People will do what they will do. Can we as a nation require that everyone thinks as we do. Do we eliminate divorce laws because we believe in marriage?
War on Terror: I do not like the road we have taken. I do not believe that the loss of privacy any gains in intelligence but then I would also make companies responsible for loss of personal information and limit maintaining any type of database on the individual (much like the EU). I think the war on terror would be better fought controlling US corporations actions in foreign lands.
Illegal Immigration: Again I am not quite in agreement. Why should those "south of the border" be privileged over those in Africa, refugees from various wars around the world etc. I would also strengthen legal immigration laws limiting the HB visas to the number decided by congress and limiting the number of visas as a percentage of the companies work force.
The first two are cultural decisions. Do cultural or religious beliefs of the many have precedence over the right to choice of the individual.
The last two are about balance and dislocations. The way we look at them are economic in nature.
tough questions all.
I tend to agree with a lot of what you say... The whole thing I have never understood in the case of illegals is how this one crime of being here illegally is somehow considered to be less of a crime than other crimes in terms of enforcement. Too much of a political hot potato I guess... Well I wonder if thoughts will change if the next big terror attack on the US comes from across the south border (regardless of nationality) rather than through the air.
I agree with you too. Regarding illegal immigrants we need to go one step further and severely penalize the Americans who employ them without demanding they go through the proper channels.
Heavy thinking. I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of these same topics. It's one of those, well on this hand..but on the other hand type of deal.
ILLEGAL immigration has to be stopped. Secure our borders best as possible first. Then for those that have been here working their asses off, have kids here, respect our country...something needs to be done for them to get documentation. BUT, again..it's almost too late for that. I am not for amnesty for all that's for sure.
Anywho..I've tagged you.
It's definitely a complex world we live in today. Legislators would need the wisdom of Solomon to pass laws that meet our needs. I would use the golden rule that if actions of individuals don't affect the rest of society (ie abortion) then let it be. If on the other hand actions of individuals threaten the stability of society and our way of life, then we have to restrict individual freedoms. In that sense, laws have always made that compromise. As for governments using their powers for nefarious intent, there is always the counterbalance of exposure via the media.
I think that those that want drugs should be given all they want, and not be treated for free after they get a fucked up. Maybe they would serve as examples to others not to get into them.
We support a surprising number of people that screwed their lives up with drugs, why? They are worthless (I'm generalizing), let them die, it was their choice to do that.
Abortion is a womans issue, it's their bodies and I stay out of it other than to support them getting them if they want to, in good clean clinics. And I don't think the tax payers want to support a lot more homeless kids.
Us terrorists wouldn't be here if the natives had had guns when our ancestors came here.
I don't have any problem with spying, put a camera on every corner if you like, it keeps bad things from happening. Proven fact.
I think that anyone should be able to come here, through the proper gate, get documented, given ID and be a registered worker and pay their taxes and such.
Maybe they could pay just a little taxes for not being a citizen? That thought just popped into my head, and I don't think they would mind as long as they could work here.
I left out a word.
They could pay a little MORE taxes.
I am sooo torn on the abortion issue too. Makes me so sad to think about either side.
On a lighter note, thanks for the LOLCatz links. I can't WAIT to get home to relax with a little animal humor.
Maddy: Yep the experience serves as a good example of what not to allow on your land ;)
David: good point on the immigration from other countries. since the 1920s we have a yearly limit on what we allow from each region and then they have to have a sponsor and meet criteria. I wonder who gets to decide we have enough of one and not another?
Doc: Sadly it takes something really ugly to happen before we take any action then it's based on fear and panic instead of rationality.
BBC: I tend to agree. Especially with the drugs we should let Darwin take over.
Random: Since I'm a man I don't have a lot of say about the issue except that it is a very sad and touchy issue. Glad you liked the links.
kat: Yes the penalizing of busineses is really working in Arizona and it needs to be implemented elsewhere.
Aprilwine: I know what you mean about the hard working illegals I've met quite a few. Not sure what to do about them.
lexcen: I think the media is a good tool for embarassment of corruption but it seems more and more they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.
I'm with ya on all that stuff. My take on abortion goes this way. OK, it's a woman's right to choose, so then that same woman should have the right to decide if she wants to own a gun, or drive her car without the seatbelts. Lets really give people rights to choose, not just one choice. I've noticed that the advocates of "choice" often want to get in the way of choices they don't agree with. I think it should go both ways.
Some very serious issues...as an incest survivor I can see the need for legal abortions..but at the same time, I could never have one..just couldn't do it..guess I am pro choice...
One day we will see abortion in the same brutal way we now see slavery. Illegal immigration depresses the wages and working conditions of everyone. It's not that Americans won't do those jobs, they just won't do them at that crap pay in those awful conditions. China was a nation of opium addicts until Mao shot all the dealers and created a sober nation. The only good thing a communist ever did. The GWOT is a goalless, direction-less thing. Name the enemy, employ every swinging Richard to defeat it. The muslims fear the red Chinese; make them fear us as much and terrorism will end. Or they certainly will. And take the polite gloves off of our Enduring Freedom troops so they can annihilate the enemy and come home where they belong. Am I mean? Not as mean as the hatred our enemy has had for us for 1400 years.
Half the lure of drugs is that they are illegal. The other half is that we are messed up and some of us choose to self-medicate. I think we all need therapy.
I agree with what you say about abortion 100%. Although those searching it out as an option should be closely questioned regarding whether or not they feel at all guilty beforehand and be presented with alternatives. I've also given thought to having those who search out an abortion for "convenience" also having mandatory tubal ligation. Children are never a convenience.
I don't understand how illegal immigrants are able to access the "system" without proper documentation at all. Are they using fakes?
All these issues are valid. Your opinions are as well. I hope that when you say Drugs, you also are meaning all the percription medication that is over prescribed and over used.
Hammer,
Great conversation going my man- excellent job! We could take each topic and do a two week workshop, brainstorm on them all and we'd still have to agree to disagree. That's what makes this country so great!
That our Armed Forces have fought for and defended our right to type these very words openly and for all to read without fear of censorship or any reprisal except from each other.
I honestly believe that each and every issue, and moral dilemma are actually tests to see how far we have progressed as a people.
Who's grading the test?
John
I agree so closely with your basics it's scary. Shades of grey--of course there are- if there weren't we would have anarchy and an even suckier world than we have at present. The grey as cube put it, is the only safe and sane zone we have. Speak out- Mental institution, raise to much hell- CIA- start catching on- Prozac, Zoloft et al?????
I agree with your illegal alien remarks. It's true that their government actually encourages their people to flee to el norte. They've even published little cartoon pamphlets to show even the dullest mind how it's done. Those bastards!
I don't know what to say about drugs. I agree.
Also, abortion, in my opinion is a mater of social responsibility. It's just being socially responsible to allow it to happen legally.
I'm with you on the drugs and abortion issues, and others as well. Just makes sense to me-- I wonder how come it's not obvious to other people as well?
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